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Subject: Few things in Raid [Print]
Author: Herog    Time: 2012-12-22 22:21     Subject: Few things in Raid

Just want to discuss with all.
1. When a player showed up late, and /gu RW DZ pls, takes forever to be added to raid.
2. During boss fighting in raid, seems we are not adding players to raid.

3. No MA ring in raid sometimes, FFA assist.
4. Can speed up Rez, players should be able to take 0% rez for now, then 96% rez back later.  Every Rez-able class should be able to help do Rez.
5. Item bidding, if can speed up.  Raid fight is 25mins, bidding is 30 mins.

Welcome to discuss more.

Thanks,
Author: Yuma    Time: 2012-12-22 22:38

some idea to share with all:)

1 u can send Tell to RL to get DZ/RW faster, our RL are sexybeast/skofaz/kenming/nemo
    if u just say in /gu  RL will miss u as they need to hold many things in raid

2  yes...when we inc boss RL will stop add ppl  as raider need focus on raid first ..u can wait boss down or CR to join rw and dz

3  sometimes RL will miss ass MA..u can say in /rs if u know , of course u should know what
is FFA aissist ..

4 Cle always busy in raid .[ our cle too less atm so we are not able to ass rez cle for raid.
so u should send tell to shm/dru/pal if u want to get rez fast...

5 to save time. for bidding....i suggest raider can report their dkp/ratio/rank by theirself in bid time. then u can save lots of time for bid item...however,RL need to ensure all the dkp
is correct or it may cause problem
Author: Herog    Time: 2012-12-23 06:20

Post Last Edit by Herog at 2012-12-23 06:34
some idea to share with all:)

1 u can send Tell to RL to get DZ/RW faster, our RL are sexybeast/skofaz/kenming/nemo
    if u just say in /gu  RL will miss u as they need to hold many things in raid

...
Yuma Post at 2012-12-22 22:38
Maybe you are not seeing this as issue, and getting used to this already.  
From my stand point of view, and I am not Officer or anyone, I don't know inside story, but this is what I am seeing now. I am not saying I am correct on all of these.

#1,  Its been many times I experienced /tell /gu for RW DZ, 5-10 mins, no invite.  If I am not in Raid, I have to /gu or i wont know who is RL?  And Guildmotd doesnt even say who is RL.  If Raid leader is too busy with boxing, maybe can consider give RW job to other O or RL?

#2, What is the reason of during the fight CANT invite players in?  If first time raider to the event, I understand to avoid the wipe, but for normal fight, what's the point?  isn't that the more players in raid the better chance to win (or maybe wipe). Or to avoid Win DKP?

#3.  FFA assist on some raid is an issue. if you think FFA assist is good, then why in some raid we keep breaking Mez due to so many Tanker on add DPS all on different targets? Makes ENC eats dust in a second?

#4. I guess u should know by now how other guilds do with battle rez, if you dont, u can ask around. With our current healer, it is little short.

#5. It is not easy on this task, and Beat is doing great job, but he/she needs help for sure.  Can't anyone help on checking DKP while he/she is working on bidding to speed up the bidding?

If guild want to be better, many things need improve for sure. And these are the things I am seeing, and I am speaking out, doesn't mean they are the way should be.

I am sure some other people have the same feeling, but due to the nature of our great Chinese culture, keeping to themselves.
This post is longer than my weekly status report now. It is not easy I can put this much. /claps all
Author: Mists    Time: 2012-12-23 07:10

本帖最后由 Mists 于 2012-12-27 23:55 编辑

1234
Author: Yuma    Time: 2012-12-23 09:11

iam not officer actually (i just like to post in guild web and sometimes make some discssion
for guild policy only. so i have no right to change anything in guild )

but..i still want to talk someting becuasei want RF to move forward

1  100% agree with mist. but it not means RL wont 100% acccept raider join even event start ..RL can send invite but not a must. it is not dkp problem..for me. i will always send tell
to RL if raid start ..u know our RL and DZ always [not 100% but 80% will be] sexybeast/
nemo(LK=godcleric]/skofaz......so its not hard to send tell.. if they dont reply me.. i will just wait until win/cr ]

ass a ppl to do RW/DZ is ok...but...if this raider dont know how to run ,it just waste our time. i still think just RL do DZ + rw invite is enough...5-10min for DZ invite is not too long actually..i think our RL already do the best

3 100% agree with mists. i suggest if u find that some raider keeps break mez [just like BD]
in raid..u can send tell to RL/O and let them handle the case...if that raider keep fail then just ask him sit out/ -dkp ... ...

4 i know what means rez cle [my first char in CEQ is cle...and as a raid cle for 3 years at least ]

u know how many cle in RF actually? normal pop raid main cle only 4 atm

1 gocleric  2 endix  3 beatraci  4 madzzi  +   jajaping  +  clericstar =6 [4main +2 box]

if it is easy raid like VOA T2 +T3...it is ok..
if something like CTOV last night...our heal power "just enough" to keep tank up
(of course we will do better as our healer all ding 100 and tank gear up]

i know rog do their job and drag corpse in front of cle...
but iam sorry really no time to that

i think if iam RL ..i will ass a PAL to do the rez job
i know keep dps up is the only way to win dragon and how important rez cle is
however...we dont have enough cle to support our raid...

for me, i will cast rez if i see it . of course if u send tell to me i can just use /rt to save time to find target..

5 of course if someone do the dkp check job can save raid time..but again..who want to do it?if no one want to do it then we need to accept this situation..

   our active RL and officer is not much atm [3-5 total maybe but they need to handle many many thing in RF..]so i understand how hard it is

    therefore...i dont demands them too much
    we can raid and we dont make too much mistake in raid..
    then it is ok for me.

of course all of these just my perosnal ideas and not represent the guild officers...
Author: Herog    Time: 2012-12-23 10:00

I am not going to say anything anymore, if someone doesn't see it as issue, that's fine, can carry on with the current status and keep RF where is, np.
Thanks for reading.
Author: Yuma    Time: 2012-12-23 10:23

i hope herog wont feel angry .....
as a raider in guild. i like more and more raider share their view to officer..
(no matter positive or negative)

英文有一些話不好說
有一句話叫"愛之深,責之切"
不管是支持或是批評也應該大聲說出來
至於上層聽不聽得進去雖然是無法控制
也算盡了一份責任

我對RAID的看法是"平時輕鬆玩,打RAID要認真"
畢竟是數十人的時間..每個人認真一點
整體效率又會高一點
這是事實,也是合理要求
就好像一些要求全員配合的RAID一樣...
人有了,DPS有了,GEAR有了..戰術一次又一次說明了
但還是每一次出現相同失誤

這對認真玩的會員當然很難受..
不過也只能好好宣導...
畢竟資源有限,人力有限
只要不是去到那裡也會出現狀況的天兵
盡可能也不作嚴厲處理..

我跟LK以前在某一些事情看法也有很大的分岐
不過我認同大家的出發點也是為了公會好
因此雖然意見不合
不過也不因此討厭對方

其實願意在會板發文的會友實在不多
會對公會發展提供意見的更少(那貼APP RANK討論會提出意見的不計O的話好像還不到5位...)
因此每一個意見也是寶貴的

如果言語上引起任何誤會
先在此說對不起
Author: Mists    Time: 2012-12-23 11:10

正常的意见分歧
take it easy yuma
Author: kakakuku    Time: 2012-12-23 13:13

Post Last Edit by kakakuku at 2012-12-23 13:37

ok let me explain 1 to 3 from my perspective.

Adding someone in raid, first, RL needs to unlock raid and wait for this person to take invite; second, RL relocks raid and  puts this person into the appropriate right group.  It sounds easy here, but sometimes it requires a bit more time than it appears to be.

Example 1: sometimes add a new player/class to raid late, RL has to adjust perhaps more than 1 group since RL has to consider things like does this player has healer to survive, does his dps got optimized in group and etc etc. In your case, I would first consider a bard or shammy to group with you if they are available.  All these considerations may cuz RL to do adjustments to more than 1 group sometimes.

Another simple example 2 could be: if the raid had 36 raiders in 6 groups.  If the 37th showed up late. RL had to remake  1 new group just for that raider  with his best effort, which means  adjustments made to all 6 previous groups. Sometimes the adjustment would be easy, sometimes would not be that easy due to lacking of certain classes.  Also, keep in mind, you may not be the only one waiting to get RW/DZ .  There are other late comer /LD  people, which further complicated the situation.

Example 3: above situations got further complicated if the raid is engaging  or about to engage a monster.
So, should the RL call off the engagement and take couple more mins to make adjust just for 1,2 or 3 raiders?  Your 5-10minis surely is precious, what about the other 30-40+ raiders' time?  Not to mention some group adjustment during fight, could be risky, possible wipe in some extend. ( such as split group, moving healers around, RT emote stuff, new adjustment on book group, east west group during fight, etc etc)

RL's primary job is to make raid efficient. so sometimes, they have to weight different options but only pick one option when they are in contradiction such as ( interest of majority of raiders vs. 1-2 individual raiders).  Hope you can understand.

Regarding  MA, MA should be announced in the beginning of raid.  
RLs: please make sure you announce MA before every engagement.  
MAs: plz make your Assist Message in rs channel.
Raiders: please ask in rs or in group if you are not sure about who is MA.  
I think all of above can solve this problem.
Author: kakakuku    Time: 2012-12-23 13:46

this is a place to share views ( regardless same or not) and share feelings

worst thing is that one post got no reply haha

so, i am happy to see this lol, but why always only u guys,yuma, herog, mist ect ect, maybe nly 4 of us reading this lol
Author: pigface    Time: 2012-12-23 16:45

I totally agree with Herog. Every point he said need to be improved instead of defense yourself.
1.Come on, How hard is throw a raidinvite and dzadd fast? They dont need be in your logic, man, just type the shit. If you have difficulty on that, you need practice fast typing.

RL do need some brain, they do have some works to load ,some jobs to assign. Click a button here ,click a button there, moving people etc... But once you get used to it, it's not that complex..

Hell,it's basically nothing to compare even a junior math problem.. The big difference is ,in 80% situation, you dont need to be that creative...You got some routine here, you just need to remember them and throw your invite/command quickly and a bit more push-up.

Like you will/need remember every roster in your raid, how is their abilities respectively. You need master that 100% every fight..so if you see a member just logged in and ask for RI/DZ and there IS a spot in your RW, shoot him a invite only take you like 10secs.

If that interrupts your logic or thinking or plan or whatever, u need level up your game.

2. U need to get used to exchange people in and out if necessary. Swap tanks with def disc up or Swap melee dps for range dps(vice versa)  is a normal thing in Top-End guild. Though maybe RF is short on tanks, but you still need to open your mind to see that possibility and DO NOT turn that option off.

3. MA ring is a MUST ,and Raid mark npc is a even BETTER way to assist.--What it does,it gives 1-3 of your raid member the ability to mark npc---- It costs less raid leader AA to purchase ,and it makes the whole raid much clear on the kill order compare to a single MA ring..
(Learn to use that, u will like it..And of course ,you will need 1-3 SMART person to use it wisely.)

4. U need speed up the bidding process by either recruiting more DKP people or shorten the biding time.. Time is precious, result is cruel, so you'd better pay attention after raid...If you miss one bid by afk/ld etc, it's your lose,learn from it and accept it...

中文版大意:

１.RL的工作固然繁重也未必那么复杂,大部分时候有套路可循,尤其是farm..所以在raid还有空位时快速加人,并不是多少难的一件事.会员指出来,就加快节奏就对了.　辩解来辩解去很难有进步.
２.其二,战斗中换人是常有的事,不要完全把此路封死.
３.第三,　Raid mark npc 在大多数复杂raid中比raid MA 更好用,请善用.　
４.第４,加快bid节奏也是必须的.适当缩短bid时间(说好２分钟出价就２分钟等等)是比较可行的选项.
Author: Herog    Time: 2012-12-23 23:34

算了。

你可以学到其他公会raid的战略，但是他们的raid风格是学不来。  这就是为什么top guild是top guild。
你去其他guild呆过 就看到不同的地方了，一成不变不是好办法。现在又不是要把guild leader 给换了。
Author: Yuma    Time: 2012-12-24 00:00

RF 是一個FAMILY + RAID 向的公會
PON 是一個RAID FOR URBER 的公會

我曾在PON 生活了3個多月時間....不是說L跟O待我不好,不過他們對RAID的要求很高,大家每次進RAID也是100%集中精神地打...他們打RAID是很有效率..不過我不是太適應那種生活..因此主動跟L說退會

至於RF..其實也經歷了幾個不同時期..不過大底也是較人性一點[負面一點講也可以說了鬆散]
由CALL RAID集合>清路>打王>分寶也可以出現不同的狀況...好技術的會員不是沒有
不過說穿了只有1/3左右..其餘1/3是普通向,不過不失,偶有意外 餘下的1/3就是狀態不穩定的會員
有時會有好表現,有時又會令你氣腦

RL跟O就是要帶領這個擁有各種不同性格的朋友闖關...
老實說,可以做到的自然不可能跟軍隊型的TOP GUILD相比
雖然很多時候也有做不好的地方
但我覺得以RF的情況能走到今天這一步
算是不錯了 (由一年前1X人 每晚打HOT UPPER 跟一些懷舊RAID 到今天RW 54人填滿]
感概良多...

當然我不是說因為今天的RF得來不易
因此任何事情也要包容/視而不見
不對的地方還是要說出來
相信RL情況容許下也會盡力配合

我喜歡RF的地方是較人性的一面
縱然很多地方也做得不好
但大家的感覺是朋友而不是一堆冷冰永的ＤＫＰ　ＬＩＳＴ

ＰＳ：我離題了。。。不好意思
Author: Herog    Time: 2012-12-25 05:19

Post Last Edit by Herog at 2012-12-25 05:21

今天难得可以在家做工，再来灌篇水。

我在PoN的时候是觉得是PoN很了不起，box cle 可以砍怎么多raid boss。
但是在另外公会呆过后，再看回PoN,是觉得有很多不足。
离开PoN后，去过CTV，Triton，Traility. 在MS玩过个礼拜，个个都是high end 公会，亲身体验过那些raid experience是不同的。我现在提出来的只是皮毛而已。
Group Exp 可以play for fun，但raid 还是要raid的style。  如果你们不careraid也不会因为first kill 一个raid boss 而开心，那是因为大家都还很在意Raid，RF走多远。
可能我的observations刺激到了你们的神经，我肯提出来是因为我想RF可以走的更远。
不要等一些hard core 玩家走完后才想办法补救。
Author: lklws    Time: 2012-12-25 11:27

我相信大部分的 RFer 都希望RF能走得更远，我也如此。

我有过无数次的灰心 失望 痛骂，我有过很多次的改进，希望我的改进使得RF能成为一个强大的公会，

很明显 我没有做到。

我认为raid就像是上班，要认真对待，不可早退不可缺席，我们当前只有3个raid日每周，应该是非常

容易做到。

在以前的帖子里面我吐槽过，RF真正的raider的也就10几个，其他的都是打酱油的，他们会因为邻居的

外公的表侄子的堂弟家的狗狗怀孕了而不能raid，可悲的是eq1的raid是54人的。10几个人是没有办法

打raid的。

幸运的是，RF终于逐渐有了更多的raider，于是我要向各位raider去道歉，因为我以前开了太多box了

，竟然没有Ta他们的box，这太假公济私了。还导致了raid效率低下，着实可恶。

因为我们打RT的效率低下，借鉴一些高效率的raid方式，我们尝试用TS来提高效率，事情的结果如大家

所预料：我们有的是吹牛打屁撸管的聊天者， 就是没有去努力用TS来提高效率的raider，更别说

raider，officer and CL 也是FC如此。

以上纯属吐槽，下面才是正文：

herog，我们不妨换一个视角：大家都在为RF努力，并享受其中，你做了你应该做的，你把一些有效的

方式提出来，或许今天没有得到实现，并不代表以后不会有，而你做了你该做的。已是无憾。
Author: lklws    Time: 2012-12-25 11:28

herog, we might as well from a different perspective: everyone in the efforts for the RF and enjoy it, you do what you should do, you put forward some effective way, and perhaps not be achieved today, does not mean that there will be no And you do what you do. Has no regrets.
Author: volant    Time: 2012-12-25 15:43

woot!
LK 你好樣的!

這邊給你鼓鼓掌

關於TS, 我也想用阿~
只是受限於網路與會造成大家噪音
好吧! 以後我會常駐開著 XD
Author: Herog    Time: 2013-1-1 00:22

以上纯属吐槽，下面才是正文：

herog，我们不妨换一个视角：大家都在为RF努力，并享受其中，你做了你应该做的，你把一些有效的

方式提出来，或许今天没有得到实现，并不代表以后不会有，而你做了你该做的。已是无憾。
lklws Post at 2012-12-25 11:27
希望EQ最后一个华人工会能持久。但訴我心直口快，看到有可能可以帮到工会的还是会提出。共勉之。



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